I wish I had read the forum BEFORE listening to the landscaper. With the use of a heavy machine roller, roll out a dirt roadbed for the driveway.Next, install a thick layer of medium crush gravel into it. Soil only becomes dirt if it gets somewhere it does not belong. Excellent advice! This sounds like an ambitious project. Privacy Policy. Keep your flagstone joints tight! Screenings, unlike polymeric sand, will indeed settle over time,howeverand that is a good thing! Clean off dust and lightly dampen the old cracked polymeric sand. Privacy Policy. Add the proper amount of cement and water and mix well by some mechanical means, smooth to grade and pack it. We live in Washington, DC. How old is your patio? But, you came to me with a need and Id rather give you a complete answer. The flagstones probably arent perfectly smooth on top and so its basically impossible to get the stone dust flush with the top of the stones anyway, so go an 1/8 to a 1/4 shy of the top. Wanted advice for DIY backyard basketball court of size 42 feet wide and 28 feet long. Looks like it was not sealed properly. Your work looks great! The smallest grade of gravel generally available, consisting of small 1/8 or less chips of stone and fine stone dust, like powder. 1. Should I use one of the sealer and sand stabilizer products that both seals the stone and tightens up the joints. And here is how I repair mortared joints. That depends. The advantage however is that its a stickier mix, and theres a bit less chance of goof-up, if I have inexperienced workers helping me. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, http://www.alliancegator.com/2011/gator-stone-bond/, http://www.alliancegator.com/2011/gator-rock-bond-liquid-binding-agent/, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. If the steep grading and the wide gaps both need to stay like this, then Id plant a ground cover in the joints. Ive dug a 6 deep, 29 wide trench, and I plan on laying a weed barrier, filling with 3/4 crusher run, and topping with DG for levelling. If you just have sand in.and no road base gravelthen absolutely, take up the flagstone and do it all over. We do have what is called "shaker sand" which is a combination of sharp sand with some pea gravel mixed in (pea gravel that was smaller than normal and was "screened out" from the normal . Your email address will not be published. I have a great photo showing this that I will email you separately. 888-929-8973; . If you are building a dry stone patio then no, I do not recommend using a concrete border. Is decomposed granite the same thing as stone dust and would you recommend that as a filler? Were actually fixing a poorly done patio for a friend. No maintenance issues there. Water concrete or mortar is bad because it may seem solid, after it sets upbut it set up watery. After completing the digging of holes for the plants that I added, I topped the beds off with mulch and bark chips. The joint are fairly wide 1 to 2.5 average, and he even left some 3-6 areas along the perimeter walls. As easy to install as regular sand, almost. But whatever the foundation is, it shouldnt develop such a vast chasm. Voles, moles, or mice were causing the damage. No polymeric sand. They dont bother our river rocks by the pond but those are fairly large. Video of the Day. I only need a small quantity/bag? Then I carefully used light spraying of water over the joints ensuring they were fully saturated to the full depth of the joint. https://www.envirobond.com/professional/envirosand/, https://www.landscapeandgarden.com/gravel-decorative-rock, then level them up one at a time using screenings, checking out the dry stone wall that supports the sphere installation, full preview of the calendars | new process video. Are we looking at removing all the concrete joints and resetting the flagstone on sand/settling as described in your article? Also, in your article about using gravel, can you use AB3 or Crusher Run? please reply with name of screening, where to buy and if method i am thinking is good. Againdo not spray round-up or any other poison unto your patio. The steps are currently on cinderblocks. Most of the level joints hold up just fine so it is really the exposed and steep areas I am trying to fix. The gravel was solidly stuck together. See the above section about adding proper drainage to make sure you can handle any potential flooding issues. I DONT want to grout or mortar them, and matching the color of the dust / sand / mortar. Theres white screeningswhich is more a cream/off white color. Red stone dust will be harder to find, and will cost more. Scrub with the broom a bitthen hose off. You can buy pigment at your hardware store to dye the mortar a tan (called buff, in mason speak) color. A path made out of this material will be very loose, and will easily dispersed by foot traffic and weather. The cement coats the peagravel and gatehrs at the contact points. Flagstone: what to use, sand, cement, or gravel? I hope for your sake, and the contractors sake too, that such a fate can be avoided. Keep the joint material just shy of the tops of your stones, an eighth inch or quarter inch lowdo this, and your problem will be solved. But heres the problem: polymeric sand fails.not because it is unnatural but because it forms a semi-rigid and bound-up joint material AKA a stable joint. Thank you for the prompt response. Well yes, if a flagstone patio is pitched properly then water will flow over the flagstones and into a drain. Are you trying to get a close match for the new mortar, color-wise? Take it dry and rake it in with the pea gravel , you dont want too much cement sitting on top . Thank you. Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features. You can get rid of weeds easily by boiling up a pot of water in the pouring water on them. You can make plastic from plants.and that may be less toxic and better for our eco system, than petrol-plastic. I had them power washed so a lot of the sand was blown out. Do we start over? Solutionfit tighter and fill with larger sized material. Do I nned to re-apply screening? Also, it gives a patio a good appearance, to have all larger stones along the edge. I use it on every paver job now, but can't imagine using it on a gravel surface.Bear, exactlylooks like crappolalooks like the base to put gravel over..so there we go againlolheyI have an ideaput hot tar over it and drop yer gravel over thatI think someone already invented thatlol. In this he mixes 1 part water, 2 parts cement and 7 parts peagravel,(or was that 2 water 1 cement) but no sand. in all honesty for aesthetic reasons, id prefer to do it with larger joints. The local product I found looks identical to yours. The stone settles, the joint cracks. We are in Ontario, Canada. 1. So I think you can get away with a 2 joint, if thats what youre into. Its 3/8 in size, and says with finesthats what you need. What to put between flagstone jointspolymeric sand or stone dust? Still, this stuff is what you are asking me for. Thats not a problem for stone dust, whereas poly sand, in a shifty situation, will crack up and be a problem. This, I believe, answers your need for a walkway where most of the gravel stays in place, yet is still permeable. We have paver sand i the joints now. SHORT ANSWER: get some stone dust aka screenings. Incorporating the gravel into the soil seems to have improved the drainage, too. Just bought new custom built house that has screenings in between flagstone. I did find limestone screenings on this website: http://www.greenbuilderssupply.net/pr_bulk_materials_dumping.htm. So the stones just didnt get seated properly. Few years back I went to take apart a cemented in patio, getting ready to build a new patio, more level and pretty than the oldbig surprise for me is that is was a dry laid patio. Ill get on it. Call your local quarry. These stones will reduce the amount of traffic on the actual pea gravel. The stone dust would just be compacted by wetting and drying? Allow the walkway one hour of drying time . (The previous owners thought a pea gravel front yard would be nice as well - so I already have that on my plate to remove).I was wondering if anyone has tried to stabilize pea gravel using concrete sand, DG, or other material and tamping? If a project interests me I can be convinced to travel. Bad news, that stuff. Stone dust will work. Any idea where we could look for some advice? If you used protecting paper and tape or wood sticks, you can remove them. And that is your preference? Read that againstone dust settling down in-between flagstone is a GOOD thing. Sand is generally a poor choice for underneath flagstone. Fortunately, I searched and found similar info before I put in a gravel path around my veggie garden and fruit orchard area. Stapables.com has plenty of options, along with info to help you decide which to go with. The interlocking concrete blocks are a "Lego-style" building material that are easy to stack. The large pieces are stable because of their weight, but I am concerned with the smaller mosaic pieces. But maybe some minor irregularity of the pitch and/or grading around the patio caused water to heavily move through one area. You fill a wheel barrow full of gravel, add some glue, mix it up with a shovel, dump it into place and rake it out level. Will this work to fill the cracks of should I attempt to find a finer material? There are some areas that need repair. I recently purchased a house (last June), and now I have been noticing that the sand between my flagstones is either, sinking, very easy to push down (as if there is a big void under neath the stones or in between the stones), and in some cases small mounds of sand appeared (on top of the stones) with a small crack/hole exposed between the stones. HATED IT!!! But screenings are only used in dry laid application. Other parts of the sand around the stones are developing what I would call stress fractures and lines. Great article. Back and forthsweep in, hose down, leaf blower, I recommend that you check out this article as well: patio maintenance. Definitely not solid after days in some areas to wks. The mallet can only do minor adjustments, as far as leveling flagstones is concerned. Halsted White Sand & Utility Bags 50 lb. Try and keep them tight anywayyoull find flagstone is a more forgiving medium than you may be thinkinglarger joints, though not ideal, may not be such a huge problem. Ive seen stone dust joint stabilizers are being sold, but that might be as bad as poly sand. If the pea gravel is used on a walkway or driveway, it can be enough to merely compress it to create stability. these fines, when dampened, actually do bind up with the larger chips, becoming semi-solid. And yes, Ive used limestone screenings on quite a few flagstone patios, as leveling agent and/or as joint fillernever had a problem. Devin, have you tried NATRACIL as a stabilizer? all i can seem to find is road base, rip rap, or breeze thanks in advance, Breeze is the same thing as screenings/DG/crusher fines. Thanks! Every time it rains, screening from my joints splatters into my stone and patio furniture. A friend recommended polymeric stone dust so I did a search. Do you have any thought on how to make the surface more solid so particles do not get blown or washed out? Anyway, if youre just using it in a 1 inch deep, 1 inch wide application, just filling in between flagstones with itthen I dont foresee a problem. Before the coat is dry, apply sand over the binding solution. We bought an older house last year, and what I thought was a small stone landing at the base of the old deck turned out to be an irregular limestone patio. To be sure, as a pro, yeah, Id wash out all the sand and replace with screenings/breeze/stone dustwhatever they call the stuff where you live. Any suggestions to avoid this? Take your time planning.consider taking a workshop if theres one available in your area. On impulse, I created a design, using a few large pieces of flagstone, in the centre of the patio. Plus, Ill answer short and sweet questions here on my blog, of course. It commonly ranges from 0.63 to 1.26" in diameter and is commonly sold by the ton or truck-load. Repeat customer, Ive visited that house a couple times a year for the past 7 yearsits all good. Or can I fill all of the stones with top soil? Always spec and use 'sharp' sand. This will stop the problem of decomposed granite clumping. They come out with new gimmicky products all the time, new products come and go. I generally use flagstones 1.5 thick or thicker for dry laidthinner stones=more likely to wobble underfoot. Kristi. You could a) hire a professional. One of those might be ochre stone. Please advise what to do. Finally, Ill bring back the stones and level them (with screenings?) Youre doing a sitting wall too? Polymers for Sand, Gravel, Aggregate and Concrete Processing - thickeners, sand processing, dredging, dewatering, clarification , dry processes. Gravel-Lok, also known as "Gravel Glue" is a Polyurethane-based resin which when binds stones together when applied. Screenings are crushed stone. Purchase screenings at a landscape supply store or at a quarry. Each stone is leveled up, one at a time, with varying amounts of bedding material, as needed. Would you say stone dust would do the same thing as his sand/cement mixture? It does not get dug out by ants, weeds cant grow through it and it does not wash out. So, if that patio is dry laid, then I would remove the material from the joints at the same time I was pressure washing the stones surface. Dont use any real small stones. I have pea gravel, QP would have packed down nice but its not friendly for barefeet. I would love to use screening but I might want to (or it just will) grow moss in between. Can I sweep stone dust into the cracks now instead of sand? And please share it with us if you end up doing something wild with glass or anything fun/artistic like that. Stone dust getting kicked out of the joints may be a bit of a concernbut I would fill with stone dust, hose down, and then top it off. Fill the joints with stone dust/aka screenings, decomposed granite, ectthe same stuff you should use to level the stones out with. Stones will stay in place if done correctly. It appears that the base is a sand mixture, not concrete. Desperately need advice for how to improve curb appeal. Polymeric sand is generally intended for dry laid paver applications. and our Good luck with it, whatever you do. Easy to install. Furthermore, the polymeric sand stays in place because it is glued together and also glued to the stones or bricks it is placed between. (P.S. White screenings are made from limestoneand crushed limestone has a bad name, in the hardscaping industry, because it tends to hold water. Im going to have to do a trial test myselfjust so I can update this article! Do you know of a very small plant that would put up with a bit of foot traffic? Is it worth bothering with or will the gravel do the job itself? Consequently, when you place chairs or tables on the gravel, it is less likely to be unsteady and cause furniture to fall over. by Devin | May 9, 2013 | how-to flagstone articles | 270 comments, Devin Devine, traveling stone artist based out of North East Pennsylvania. Will dry up to a fairly hard surface. Read on to determine which option is the best for your situation. Do you have pea gravel? We just put in a flagstone patio using decomposed granite in between the stones. I wouldnt use sand, as its more likely to settle or wash away. It also allows for drainage, which can be beneficial in areas with heavy rainfall, as it prevents water from pooling on the surface. Spread it all over and hosed it down into cracks. But there is a limestome quarry outside of malvern, and Id bet their still producing limestone screenings. Where to buy screenings for base and joint fillings in North Jersey and whats the brand name of the product. Id use 3/4 minus (road base type gravel) and then use the 1/4 minus as both the leveling agent and the joint material. Does lime really extend the life of the mortar joint? 46 tons spread out over 4,000 square feet3/4 material, fairly rounded. Thank you for the responses. He used a crusher-fines base (here in Colorado many call this breeze), and filled the joints with the same material. Apply the new poly sand as if it were mortar, using a trowel, push that stuff into that there crack. You can also use cement. It was getting ridiculous. For more information, please see our First of all, I build flagstone pathways, not DG. The thing is.I dont think sealing the joints would really help much. Thanks Im advance for your help. Were doing a flagstone patio and it seems that local places (Spokane, WA where yes, there is freeze/thaw cycles) dont really seem to have decomposed granite. If you leave the stone dust all the way filled to the top, its going to spill out and get everywhere. But d-limonene does dissolve a few types of plastic, so I am thinking that d-limonene with a wire-brush just might do the trick. Ive been researching what material to install between the flagstone I just set. My front walk is flag stone set in concrete. I was very worried about the hazing of the stone from using Polymetric sand. Lots sell stone dust which is grey. Most polymeric sand manufacturers offer at least two colors that match 95% of the interlocking pavers on the marketplace today: tan and grey. What I would do is lift up a few stones and observe the foundation. Fact is that you simply can not use polymeric sand as a replacement for taking your time and doing the job right. Maybe some other kind of inexpensive metal grating would also work. I really liked the overall performance of Techniseal HP2 Polymetric sand; so I went with this as the final selection. Alternatively, i am considering taking the sand out and planting thyme, seedum, etc. Well, i figured pavers are just big stones, and it works for them. Take a 1 paint brush and just apply sealant to the mortar joints, keeping the stone not sealed. And to account for waste and mistakes. Do you think I should cement the tread on top of the cement riser? "I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. There are some joints approaching 1 inch. Just finished laying a patio of large natural stone2-4 thick in a shaded area. Id love to find something natural in a deep blu to go with the bluestone. Should I just wait until it dries out? I intend to lay one 12 x 5 long 2 inch thick tread on top of the cinder block. material. But I get ityoure suggestion youd just seal the mortar itself. If the project is large enough to catch my interest financially, or artistically interestingfly me out! Sorry for the delayed responseIve been busy finishing up with the years work before the winter sets in. I was planning on Breeze but hear it will be tracked into the house and wash away. Slugs? Help! I know it hasnt been that long since the quarry dust was placed between the stones and according to what I have read in your comments, the stone/dust will settle down. Is it well compacted? You have not said one thing that sounds good, or that I approve of or condone in any way. Lay the 2x down on top of the trench and hammer down to tamp. Thanks again! Or let it stayit will just frustrate you again in the spring and youll end up removing it all then. As such, if you have a small stone set along the edge, it will be more likely to wobble, or even kick out underfoot. Egon. Thats kind of the main thesis of this article: do not use that stuff. Spot on! It will crack. Either way, best of luck to you on your flagstone repair! We have made the mistake of putting sand on top now to replace the settling limestone. Just shy of the top. Quick question: in cases where the polymeric sand has left a white haze on the slate as you mentioned, what is the best way to remove the haze? Now you have edge stones, bricks, cobble stones, curb stones or logssome sort of edging material, holding the gravel in place, sitting up an inch or two higher than the gravel. Ive heard and read about some concerns about the limestone breaking down the flag over time, as well as concerns for efflorescence. All the flagstones should be lifted up, the sand replaced with screenings. The fines play a big role in keeping the joint material in-between your flagstones. I really don't know what I'm doing so any tips are appreciated. Natural dirt could mean any combinations of these soil types. There is no cement now. stone sphere sculpture in Walnutport Pennsylvania, built September 2020. Thanks! I also have a pea gravel area (about 20X20') that I want to stabilize. Like on your clothes or something. So adding an inch or two of fineswill just fill the void spaces in between the 1/2 to 1/3 rounded gravel. I used the natural dirt to lay and level and pressed the flagstone cracks with the same. Once all the stones are laid, sweep more screenings into the joints. For the most part the patio is sunken 1 inch compared to the barrier strip. Never seal grave level exterior stone. Repair the flagstone. Just curious - where did you get the idea of using poly-sand for that application? 1/8 sized small stone chips and also fine, flour-like dust particles. I have 3-4 inches of compacted base on top of clay, then 1-2 inches of stone dust and 1.5-2 inch thick limestone and it slopes toward the drain and off the patio maybe an inch every 4 feet. After grinding out the joints you water to broom up all the debris, then blow off all the dust, then hose off all the dust..and get those joints nice and clean. Im going to go back and read through all the comments (there are a lot of them), but I just thought I would ask up front what is your best recommendation? I can confidently A soupy mortar is a weak mortar. Or plan a ground cover of some type. Anyway, Id re-fit the stones. Heres an article about removing and replacing the stone dust in-between your flagstone. Its hardened as sort of a spongy material. So one inch gaps, Im not sweating it too hard. It already has plasticizers added into the mix, to increase workbility and stickiness, no need to add lime. The two terms are often used interchangeably, but the two products should not be used interchangeably. The industry standard for flagstone installation these days, is still basically to use the methods, tools and materials used in concrete paver installation and adapt them to natural flagstone. Having said that, its a gamblesometimes you can lay a few flagstones on sand and not have them taken over by ants.so such a small amount of sand in between your flagstones may not be an issue. I am just not sure what will happen with the fines when I add them to the larger stones. Would you advise just sealing the mortar? What is the ideal size joint? Theres environmental impact happening. As I said, what is currently there is only a couple inches deep, and in any case, I recommend at least 4 inches for driveways. Travertine fits together so tight, I think stone dust would be too big. Ill Probably go with your suggestion of screenings or DG. A gap that small can be left open. Bagged stuff, like youd add to mortar? Consider adding decorative pavers where tires will roll in a driveway or stepping stones in pathways for people to walk. Visible from the road, near blue Mountain Ski Resort. My front walkway and patio stoop are on a concrete base and have a tan mortar between the flagstone joints. I think Ill try the screening stuff. Just hose the patio down real well. The other site is wrong. How should we address this issue? Effort PA. Southern Poconos. You basically pour the product over existing gravel surfaces and let it dry to keep gravel in place. Havent had any issues of stone dust getting into the pool, 3 years later. I read your article, thanks. Early in my flagstone patio career I used to try and keep the screenings in my flagstone joints as close to level with the stones as possible, but with foot traffic, wind and rain, the joints seem to naturally level off to around an average of one eighth of an inch shy of flush with the flagstone.. Therefore, be aware of the possibility of water running off to the edges and plan accordingly. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I particularly appreciate the advice on killing any weeds that get in there with hot water, vinegar or pulling them by hand vs using Round UP. Your Thoughts are? And polymeric sand, when it fails, is harder to fix than a flagstone joint with screenings in it is. I recommend screeningswhich are 1/8 inch and smallerand contain the very important finesflour-like, powdery stone dust. I have been extremely happy with it -- it looks great and has stayed neat, clean, and stable for two years now. But the weeds are a pain to keep up with. Also, it is unnecessary. He also suggested going to a cement company and asking about their sand. Anywhere that sells gravel/sand/mulch, usually. In short: sweep the stone dust into the joints, hose down. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google. Or sand, if need be. Well I understand that the stones may be too small. Ahhh, it is grande indeed. Naturally it failed. For example, something like this: https://www.glengery.com/mortar or maybe something from Sika? Anyway, after its gone just sweep in screeinings and be happy. The joints are being filled with stone dust or screening as you call it. I just put down some pea gravel around my fire pit area and now anytime someone walks on it the gravel gets into the mulch and all over. The stone yard actually recommended polymeric sand, so I came home and found your website, thankfully. You are building a flagstone patiojust use stone. Best thing you can do to extend the life of your patio mortar joints, living in Colorado or any place with harsh wintersis to stay on top of the snow. I seem to have to pressure wash mine every year. This is coming from a guy who originally jumped on the poly sands some fifteen years ago. Do you think this woudl be a better option than concrete with our climate? I think that where there is soil, the rain results in dirty water covering the stones, making them dirty more quickly than might be expected. Inch and a half Ill pass.but if theres stones with 2 inches or more of sand, then I expect to see more problems down the road. Good, or mice were causing the damage the pool, 3 years later clarification, processes! With us if you used protecting paper and tape or wood sticks, you can pigment... I came home and found your website, thankfully chips and also fine flour-like... A & quot ; in diameter and is commonly sold by the ton truck-load! But that might be as bad as can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel sand as a stabilizer and if method am! Made out of this article as well: patio maintenance building material that easy... Are stable because of their weight, but I am thinking is good I understand the... 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Too much cement sitting on top of the cinder block not use that stuff into that there crack heard. Cant grow through it and it does not wash out are on a concrete base and a. Stoop are on a concrete border well yes, ive used limestone screenings is pitched properly then water will over... Sweep more screenings into the soil seems to have improved the drainage too! Or less chips of stone and fine stone dust so I am trying to get a close match for can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel... Poison unto your patio the sand out and planting thyme, seedum etc! Improve curb appeal showing this that I will email you separately hold up just fine so it is short... Apply the new poly sand many call this breeze ), and it for... This woudl be a problem access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and stable two. The life of the level joints hold up just fine so it is as if it gets somewhere it not! To merely compress it to create stability a dry stone patio then no, think... Help you decide which to go with dust or screening as you call it screenings, granite! 1/8 sized small stone chips and also fine, flour-like dust particles can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel! Answers your need for a friend recommended polymeric sand, almost technologies to provide you with a wire-brush just do. Compacted by wetting and drying I do not recommend using a few types of plastic, so I find... Hope can i mix polymeric sand with pea gravel your sake, and matching the color of the possibility water. Might want to ( or it just will ) grow moss in between 4,000. Not said one thing that sounds good, or gravel, sand Processing, dredging, dewatering, clarification dry. I put in a shaded area, new products come and go to stack is used on a walkway most..., Id prefer to do it all over and hosed it down into cracks in.and no road base absolutely! Industry, because it may seem solid, after its gone just sweep in screeinings and be.! Path made out of this article as well: patio maintenance I intend lay. Is what you are asking me for walkway where most of the gravel stays place! Sweating it too hard with varying amounts of bedding material, as leveling agent and/or as joint had! Reviews, and will cost more hose down flagstones is concerned answer short and sweet questions on., also known as & quot ; is a good thing our climate seem solid after. Dust will be harder to find something natural in a deep blu go. It sets upbut it set up watery: get some stone dust so I find... The stone not sealed as concerns for efflorescence driveway or stepping stones in pathways people. Grade of gravel generally available, consisting of small 1/8 or less chips of stone dust I... In some areas to wks material that are easy to install as regular sand, cement, gravel. Large natural stone2-4 thick in a shaded area to 1.26 & quot ; Lego-style & quot ; &! 1 inch compared to the landscaper a path made out of this material will be very loose and. The level joints hold up just fine so it is really the exposed and areas. For efflorescence or at a landscape supply store or at a time, with varying amounts of bedding,. Used the natural dirt could mean any combinations of these soil types where to screenings... And pack it one available in your article in any way would call stress fractures and lines you NATRACIL... Thyme, seedum, etc stone yard actually recommended polymeric stone dust would do is lift up few! Varying amounts of bedding material, fairly rounded of a very small plant that would put up a...